Kubernetes Podcast from Google


CRAIG BOX: I played a few things, actually. It was a matrix VR zombie thing called "Superhot," which was reminiscent of a game called "Max Payne," if you can think back to when I was playing games in the [early 2000s] with a bullet-time mechanic.

ADAM GLICK: I don't remember zombies in "Max Payne," though.

CRAIG BOX: No, no--

ADAM GLICK: I remember very noir feel.

CRAIG BOX: Exactly. "Epic Roller Coasters" was very similar to the simulator rides at theme parks. I remember doing the "Simpsons" ride at Universal Studios once, and you're being thrown around on this roller coaster. And you kind of realize, I can just close my eyes and it all just goes away. [CHUCKLING] But the fun, of course, were the games that were more in line with a VR party theme, which "Beat Saber" was my favorite. That is a game where you wave your arms around wildly to cut through blocks as they approach you-- very much to the "Guitar Hero," but with wavy VR arms.

ADAM GLICK: Is it kind of "Guitar Hero" meets "Fruit Ninja" in a VR setting?

CRAIG BOX: Absolutely. That's a very good way to describe it. I think my overall favorite game of the day was a game which you don't actually need the Oculus to play at all. It's called "Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes."

ADAM GLICK: I love that game.

CRAIG BOX: You are trying to disarm a bomb, and you're locked away in your little headset and looking at the bomb. And no one else can see it, so you have to describe what you see to people who have the bomb manual and who are trying to help you defuse things by instructing you as to which wire to cut and which button to press and so on.

ADAM GLICK: Do you feel that the VR was integral, that you could interact with the bomb, as opposed to the computer-based version, which the one that I've played, where you kind of-- you move it around with your touchpad or mouse. But you're less there.

CRAIG BOX: No, I hear you can get it on the phone as well. And anything, as long as the other people can't see it, the game mechanic works well anywhere you like.

ADAM GLICK: Huh.

CRAIG BOX: Anyway, how was the play?

ADAM GLICK: The play was great. We saw a preview of a play called "Six," which actually started and I think it's still playing over in London's West End--

CRAIG BOX: It is.

ADAM GLICK: --about the six wives of Henry VIII. And it is done less of a traditional play and more kind of if Beyoncé were to do it as a rock concert.

CRAIG BOX: Ah.

ADAM GLICK: And it's quite a spectacle. I learned some interesting things about Henry VIII's wives, as well as really enjoyed a number of the songs. You can, of course, find them on YouTube, if you kind of want to hear the soundtrack. But the show is-- it's worth seeing, and it's a nice reimagining of the story of Henry VIII and especially of his wives, putting his wives as the central characters of that story.

CRAIG BOX: I will put that on my list, but until then, the news.

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ADAM GLICK: Kubernetes 1.17 is out. This is a stability release which moves 14 enhancements to general availability, including cloud provider labels, which have been in beta since Kubernetes 1.2. Four features move to beta, including volume snapshots, and four are moved to alpha, including dual stack IPv4 and IPv6 support. You'll learn more about this release in today's interview.

CRAIG BOX: The Kubernetes news from AWS Reinvent was that EKS on Amazon's Fargate platform is now generally available. Fargate automatically permissions infrastructure when a pod is scheduled, but isn't truly nodeless. In effect, each pod creates a new EC2 instance as a node, which is visible from Kubernetes and removed when the pod terminates. AWS also teased their new Firecracker-based Fargate, but with no indication of timeline.

ADAM GLICK: Fargate was initially integrated with Amazon's proprietary ECS service. In an interview, CEO Andy Jassy defended developing for AWS first, despite the community's interest in interoperability. Regarding ECS, he said "because we control the development of it, we don't have to collaborate and coordinate with lots of different companies to make decisions". Mr. Jassy perhaps got a bit ahead of his skis when he then stated that "we're very big supporters and contributors in the Kubernetes space". At present, CNCF DevStats page lists Amazon's total contributions to Kubernetes as less than 1/3 of 1%.

CRAIG BOX: Microsoft has launched an ingress gateway controller for their Application Gateway layer 7 load balancer, which provides regional load balancing. The controller is open source and is generally available.

ADAM GLICK: Like Jenkins X, but don't want to run and manage it? CloudBees has announced a SaaS version of CloudBees CI/CD, powered by Jenkins X. Offering ChatOps and GitOps for your DevOps pipeline, this is definitely not for your grandpops. The hosted product enables users to create Git repositories, set web hooks, and create continuous delivery pipelines with a single command. The offering is currently in preview, and there's a sign-up form on their website, if you are interested in trying it out.

CRAIG BOX: Congratulations to the Google Cloud team, as CRN has named Anthos the Hybrid Cloud Product of the Year. The trade publication called out Anthos' ability to run in both a hybrid on-prem deployment and as a multi-cloud offering.

ADAM GLICK: Have you ever questioned how complex Kubernetes is? Daniele Polencic has posted a visual flow diagram for debugging Kubernetes issues that is both incredibly useful and shockingly more complex than the schematic of early computers like UNIVAC. Polencic is a Kubernetes trainer, and it shows, as his post is well-structured, providing diagrams, PDFs of the decision tree, and highlights of the issues in example YAML.

CRAIG BOX: LINE, loosely the WhatsApp of Korea and Japan, has described their in-house Kubernetes service called Nucleo and their clustered deployment engine called Caravan. Neither project is open source, but you can learn a little of what it takes to run a large Kubernetes installation and some various trade-offs that were made to deploy large clusters.

ADAM GLICK: It's election time for the CNCF's Technical Oversight Committee. The TOC is the group responsible for the technical direction of CNCF projects, and in September, the CNCF updated the TOC's charter. The new group will include six members nominated and elected by the governing board, three of whom are up for election this December. The remaining five are selected, two by other members of the TOC, two from the end user community, and one from the group of non-Sandbox project maintainers.

CRAIG BOX: The CNCF has also published a new case study by uSwitch, where they talk about how the use of Kubernetes has been transformational for their company, as they went from managing VMs to running their infrastructure in containers.

ADAM GLICK: Finally, Nitzan Niv from Alcide writes on how to make audit logs useful for compliance and security in Kubernetes. As Cloud Native is becoming more critical, many of the traditional infrastructure best practices are finding their way into the Kubernetes world, anf this post is a nice reminder and refresher of the importance of logging.

CRAIG BOX: And that's the news.

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ADAM GLICK: Guinevere Saenger is a software engineer for GitHub and the release lead for the 1.17 release of Kubernetes. Welcome to the show, Guinevere.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Hi, glad to be here.

ADAM GLICK: You have a nontraditional background for someone who works as a software engineer. Can you explain what your background is?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: My first career was as a collaborative pianist, which is an academic way of saying piano accompanist. So I am a classically trained pianist who spends most of her time onstage, accompanying other people and making them sound great.

ADAM GLICK: Is that, like, the piano world's equivalent of pair-programming?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: No one has said it to me like that before, but all sorts of things are starting to make sense in my head right now. I think that's a really great way of putting it.

ADAM GLICK: That's a really interesting background as someone who also has a background with music stuff. What made you decide to get into software development?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: I found myself in a life situation where I needed more stable source of income. And teaching music and performing for various gig opportunities was really just not cutting it anymore. And I found myself to be working really, really hard with not much to show for it. I had a lot of friends who were software engineers. I live in Seattle. That's sort of a thing that happens to you when you live in Seattle. You get to know a bunch of software engineers, one way or the other.

The ones I met were all lovely people, and they said, hey, I'm happy to show you how to program in Python. And so I did that for a bit, and then I heard about this program called Ada Developers Academy. And that's a year long coding school, targeted at women and non-binary folks that are looking for a second career in tech. And so I applied for that.

CRAIG BOX: What can you tell us about that program?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: It's incredibly selective, for starters. It's really popular in Seattle and has gotten quite a good reputation. It took me three tries to get in. They do two classes a year, and so it was a while before I got my response saying, congratulations, we are happy to welcome you into Cohort 6. I think what sets Ada Developers Academy apart from other bootcamp style coding programs are three things, I think? The main important one is that if you get in, you pay no tuition. The entire program is funded by company sponsors.

CRAIG BOX: Right.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: The other thing that really convinced me is that five months of the 11-month program are an industry internship, which means you get both practical experience, mentorship, and potential job leads at the end of it.

CRAIG BOX: So very much like a condensed version of the University of Waterloo degree, where you do co-op terms.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Interesting. I didn't know about that.

CRAIG BOX: Having lived in Waterloo for a while, I knew a lot of people who did that. But what would you say the advantages were of going through such a condensed schooling process in computer science?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: I'm not sure that the condensed process is necessarily an advantage. I think it's a necessity, though. People have to quit their jobs to go do this program. It's not an evening school type of thing.

CRAIG BOX: Right.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: And your internship is basically a full-time job when you do it. One thing that Ada was really, really good at is giving us practical experience that directly relates to the workplace. We learned how to use Git. We learned how to design websites using Rails. And we also learned how to collaborate, how to pair-program. We had a weekly retrospective, so we sort of got a soft introduction to workflows at a real workplace. Adding to that, the internship and I think the overall experience is a little bit more practical workplace oriented and a little bit less academic.

When you're done with it, you don't have to relearn how to be an adult in a working relationship with other people. You come with a set of previous skills. There are Ada graduates who have previously been campaign lawyers, and veterinarians, and nannies, cooks, all sorts of people. And it turns out these skills tend to translate, and they tend to matter.

ADAM GLICK: With your background in music, what do you think that that allows you to bring to software development that could be missing from, say, standard software development training that people go through?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: People tend to really connect the dots when I tell them I used to be a musician. Of course, I still consider myself a musician because you don't really ever stop being a musician. But they say, oh, yeah, music and math, and that's just a similar sort of brain. And that makes so much sense. And I think there's a little bit of a point to that. When you learn a piece of music, you have to start recognizing patterns incredibly quickly, almost intuitively.

And I think that is the main skill that translates into programming-- recognizing patterns, finding the things that work, finding the things that don't work. And for me, especially as a collaborative pianist, it's the communicating with people, to finding out what people really want, where something is going, how to figure out what the general direction is that we want to take before we start writing the first line of code.

CRAIG BOX: In your experience at Ada or with other experiences you've had, have you been able to identify patterns in perhaps other backgrounds for people that you'd recommend, hey, you're good at music, so therefore you might want to consider doing something like a course in computer science?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Overall, I think ultimately writing code is just giving a set of instructions to a computer. And we do that in daily life all the time. We give instructions to our kids, we give instructions to our students. We do math, we write textbooks. We give instructions to a room full of people when you're in court as a lawyer.

Actually, the entrance exam to Ada Developers Academy used to have questions from the LSAT on it to see if you were qualified to join the program. They changed that when I applied, but I think that's a thing that happened at one point. So, overall, I think software engineering is a much more varied field than we give it credit for, and that there are so many ways in which you can apply your so-called other skills and bring them under the umbrella of software engineering.

CRAIG BOX: I do think that programming you can effectively call a half art and half science. There's creativity to be applied. There is perhaps one way to solve a problem most efficiently. But there are many different ways that you can choose to express how you compiled something down to that way.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Yeah, I mean, that's definitely true. I think one way that you could probably prove that is that if you write code at work and you're working on something with other people, you can probably tell which one of your co-workers wrote which package, just by the way it's written, or how it is documented, or how it is styled, or any of those things. I really do think that the human character shines through.

ADAM GLICK: What got you interested in Kubernetes and open source?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: The honest answer is absolutely nothing. Going back to my programming school-- and remember that I had to do a five-month internship as part of my training, the way that the internship works is that sponsor companies for the program get interns in according to how much they sponsored a specific cohort of students.

So at the time, Samsung and SDS offered to host two interns for five months on their Cloud Native Computing team and have that be their practical experience. So I go out of a Ruby on Rails full stack web development bootcamp and show up at my internship, and they said, "Welcome to Kubernetes. Try to bring up a cluster." And I said, "Kuber what?"

CRAIG BOX: We've all said that on occasion.

ADAM GLICK: Trial by fire, wow.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: I will say that entire team was absolutely wonderful, delightful to work with, incredibly helpful. And I will forever be grateful for all of the help and support that I got in that environment. It was a great place to learn.

CRAIG BOX: You now work on GitHub's Kubernetes infrastructure. Obviously, there was GitHub before there was a Kubernetes, so a migration happened. What can you tell us about the transition that GitHub made to running on Kubernetes?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: A disclaimer here-- I was not at GitHub at the time that the transition to Kubernetes was made. However, to the best of my knowledge, the decision to transition to Kubernetes was made and people decided, yes, we want to try Kubernetes. We want to use Kubernetes. And mostly, the only decision left was, which one of our applications should we move over to Kubernetes?

CRAIG BOX: I thought GitHub was written on Rails, so there was only one application.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: [LAUGHING] We have a lot of supplementary stuff under the covers.

CRAIG BOX: I'm sure.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: But yes, GitHub is written in Rails. It is still written in Rails. And most of the supplementary things are currently running on Kubernetes. We have a fair bit of stuff that currently does not run on Kubernetes. Mainly, that is GitHub Enterprise related things. I would know less about that because I am on the platform team that helps people use the Kubernetes infrastructure. But back to your question, leadership at the time decided that it would be a good idea to start with GitHub the Rails website as the first project to move to Kubernetes.

ADAM GLICK: High stakes!

GUINEVERE SAENGER: The reason for this was that they decided if they were going to not start big, it really wasn't going to transition ever. It was really not going to happen. So they just decided to go all out, and it was successful, for which I think the lesson would probably be commit early, commit big.

CRAIG BOX: Are there any other lessons that you would take away or that you've learned kind of from the transition that the company made, and might be applicable to other people who are looking at moving their companies from a traditional infrastructure to a Kubernetes infrastructure?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: I'm not sure this is a lesson specifically, but I was on support recently, and it turned out that, due to unforeseen circumstances and a mix of human error, a bunch of the namespaces on one of our Kubernetes clusters got deleted.

ADAM GLICK: Oh, my.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: It should not have affected any customers, I should mention, at this point. But all in all, it took a few of us a few hours to almost completely recover from this event. I think that, without Kubernetes, this would not have been possible.

CRAIG BOX: Generally, deleting something like that is quite catastrophic. We've seen a number of other vendors suffer large outages when someone's done something to that effect, which is why we get #hugops on Twitter all the time.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: People did send me #hugops, that is a thing that happened. But overall, something like this was an interesting stress test and sort of proved that it wasn't nearly as catastrophic as a worst case scenario.

CRAIG BOX: GitHub runs its own data centers. Kubernetes was largely built for running on the cloud, but a lot of people do choose to run it on their own, bare metal. How do you manage clusters and provisioning of the machinery you run?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: When I started, my onboarding project was to deprovision an old cluster, make sure all the traffic got moved to somewhere where it would keep running, provision a new cluster, and then move website traffic onto the new cluster. That was a really exciting onboarding project. At the time, we provisioned bare metal machines using Puppet. We still do that to a degree, but I believe the team that now runs our computing resources actually inserts virtual machines as an extra layer between the bare metal and the Kubernetes notes.

Again, I was not intrinsically part of that decision, but my understanding is that it just makes for a greater reliability and reproducibility across the board. We've had some interesting hardware dependency issues come up, and the virtual machines basically avoid those.

CRAIG BOX: You've been working with Kubernetes for a couple of years now. How did you get involved in the release process?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: When I first started in the project, I started at the special interest group contributor experience, namely because one of my co-workers at the time, Aaron Crickenberger, was a big Kubernetes community person. Still is.

CRAIG BOX: We've had him on the show for one of these very release interviews!

GUINEVERE SAENGER: In fact, this is true. So Aaron and I actually go way back to Samsung SDS. Anyway, Aaron suggested that I should write up a contribution to the Kubernetes project, and I said, me? And he said, yes, of course. You will be speaking at KubeCon, so you should probably get started with a PR or something. So I tried, and it was really, really hard. And I complained about it in a public GitHub issue, and people said, yeah. Yeah, we know it's hard. Do you want to help with that?

And so I started getting really involved with the process for new contributors to get started and have successes, kind of getting a foothold into a project that's as large and varied as Kubernetes. From there on, I began to talk to people, get to know people. The great thing about the Kubernetes community is that there is so much mentorship to go around.

ADAM GLICK: Right.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: There are so many friendly people willing to help. It's really funny when I talk to other people about it. They say, what do you mean, your coworker? And I said, well, he's really a colleague. He really works for another company.

CRAIG BOX: He's sort of officially a competitor.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Yeah.

CRAIG BOX: But we're friends.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: But he totally helped me when I didn't know how to get-- patch my borked pull request. So that happened. And eventually, somebody just suggested that I start following along in the release process and shadow someone on their release team role. And that, at the time, was Tim Pepper, who was bug triage lead, and I shadowed him for that role.

CRAIG BOX: Another podcast guest on the interview train.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: This is a pattern that probably will make more sense once I explain to you about the shadow process of the release team.

ADAM GLICK: Well, let's turn to the Kubernetes release and the release due process. First up, what's new in this release of 1.17?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: We have only a very few new things. The one that I'm most excited about is that we have moved IPv4 and IPv6 dual support to alpha. That is the most major change, and it has been, I think, a year and a half in coming. So this is the very first cut of that feature, and I'm super excited about that.

CRAIG BOX: The people who have been promised IPv6 for many, many years and still don't really see it, what will this mean for them?

ADAM GLICK: And most importantly, why did we skip IPv5 support?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: I don't know.

CRAIG BOX: Please see the appendix to this podcast for technical explanations.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: So having dual stack configuration obviously just enables people to have a much more flexible infrastructure and not have to worry so much about making decisions that will become outdated or that may be overcomplicated. This basically means that pods can have dual stack addresses, and nodes can have dual stack addresses. And that basically just makes communication a lot easier.

CRAIG BOX: What about features that didn't make it into the release? We had a conversation with Lucky in the 1.16 interview, where he mentioned the sidecar containers. And unfortunately they, didn't make it into that release. And I see now that they haven't made this one either.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: They have not, and we are actually currently undergoing an effort of tracking features that flip multiple releases.

As a community, we need everyone's help. There are a lot of features that people want. There is also a lot of cleanup that needs to happen. And we have started talking at previous KubeCons repeatedly about problems with maintainer burnout, reviewer burnout, have a hard time finding reviews for your particular contributions, especially if you are not an entrenched member of the community. And it has become very clear that this is an area where the entire community needs to improve.

So the unfortunate reality is that sometimes life happens, and people are busy. This is an open source project. This is not something that has company mandated OKRs. Particularly during the fourth quarter of the year in North America, but around the world, we have a lot of holidays. It is the end of the year. Kubecon North America happened as well. This makes it often hard to find a reviewer in time or to rally the support that you need for your enhancement proposal. Unfortunately, slipping releases is fairly common and, at this point, expected. We started out with having 42 enhancements and landed with roughly half of that.

CRAIG BOX: I was going to ask about the truncated schedule due to the fourth quarter of the year, where there are holidays in large parts of the world. Do you find that the Q4 release on the whole is smaller than others, if not for the fact that it's some week shorter?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Q4 releases are shorter by necessity because we are trying to finish the final release of the year before the end of the year holidays. Often, releases are under pressure of KubeCons, during which finding reviewers or even finding the time to do work can be hard to do, if you are attending. And even if you're not attending, your reviewers might be attending.

It has been brought up last year to make the final release more of a stability release, meaning no new alpha features. In practice, for this release, this is actually quite close to the truth. We have four features graduating to beta and most of our features are graduating to stable. I am hoping to use this as a precedent to change our process to make the final release a stability release from here on out. The timeline fits. The past experience fits this model.

ADAM GLICK: On top of all of the release work that was going on, there was also KubeCon that happened. And you were involved in the contributor summit. How was the contributor summit?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: This was the first contributor summit where we had an organized events team with events organizing leads, and handbooks, and processes. And I have heard from multiple people-- this is just word of mouth-- that it was their favorite contributor summit ever.

CRAIG BOX: Was someone allocated to hat production? Everyone had sailor hats.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Yes, the entire event staff had sailor hats with their GitHub handle on them, and it was pretty fantastic. You can probably see me wearing one in some of the pictures from the contributor summit. That literally was something that was pulled out of a box the morning of the contributor summit, and no one had any idea. But at first, I was a little skeptical, but then I put it on and looked at myself in the mirror. And I was like, yes. Yes, this is accurate. We should all wear these.

ADAM GLICK: Did getting everyone together for the contributor summit help with the release process?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: It did not. It did quite the opposite, really. Well, that's too strong.

ADAM GLICK: Is that just a matter of the time taken up?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: It's just a completely different focus. Honestly, it helped getting to know people face-to-face that I had currently only interacted with on video. But we did have to cancel the release team meeting the day of the contributor summit because there was kind of no sense to having it happen. We moved it to the Tuesday, I believe.

CRAIG BOX: The role of the release team leader has been described as servant leadership. Do you consider the position proactive or reactive?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Honestly, I think that depends on who's the release team lead, right? There are some people who are very watchful and look for trends, trying to detect problems before they happen. I tend to be in that camp, but I also know that sometimes it's not possible to predict things. There will be last minute bugs sometimes, sometimes not. If there is a last minute bug, you have to be ready to be on top of that. So for me, the approach has been I want to make sure that I have my priorities in order and also that I have backups in case I can't be available.

ADAM GLICK: What was the most interesting part of the release process for you?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: A release lead has to have served in other roles on the release team prior to being release team lead. To me, it was very interesting to see what other roles were responsible for, ones that I hadn't seen from the inside before, such as docs, CI signal. I had helped out with CI signal for a bit, but I want to give a big shout out to CI signal lead, Alena Varkockova, who was able to communicate effectively and kindly with everyone who was running into broken tests, failing tests. And she was very effective in getting all of our tests up and running.

So that was actually really cool to see. And yeah, just getting to see more of the workings of the team, for me, it was exciting. The other big exciting thing, of course, was to see all the changes that were going in and all the efforts that were being made.

CRAIG BOX: The release lead for 1.18 has just been announced as Jorge Alarcon. What are you going to put in the proverbial envelope as advice for him?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: I would want Jorge to be really on top of making sure that every special interest group that enters a change, that has an enhancement for 1.18, is on top of the timelines and is responsive. Communication tends to be a problem. And I had hinted at this earlier, but some enhancements slipped simply because there wasn't enough reviewer bandwidth.

Greater communication of timelines and just giving people more time and space to be able to get in their changes, or at least, seemingly give them more time and space by sending early warnings, is going to be helpful. Of course, he's going to have a slightly longer release, too, than I did. This might be related to a unique Q4 challenge. Overall, I would encourage him to take more breaks, to rely more on his release shadows, and split out the work in a fashion that allows everyone to have a turn and everyone to have a break as well.

ADAM GLICK: What would your advice be to someone who is hearing your experience and is inspired to get involved with the Kubernetes release or contributoer process?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Those are two separate questions. So let me tackle the Kubernetes release question first. Kubernetes sig release has, in my opinion, a really excellent onboarding program for new members. We have what is called the Release Team Shadow Program. We also have the Release Engineering Shadow Program, or the Release Management Shadow Program. Those are two separate subprojects within that sig release. And each subproject has a team of roles, and each role can have two to four shadows that are basically people who are part of that role team, and they are learning that role as they are doing it.

So for example, if I am the lead for bug triage on the release team, I may have two, three or four people that I closely work with on the bug triage tasks. These people are my shadows. And once they have served one release cycle as a shadow, they are now eligible to be lead in that role. We have an application form for this process, and it should probably be going up in January. It usually happens the first week of the release once all the release leads are put together.

CRAIG BOX: Do you think being a member of the release team is something that is a good first contribution to the Kubernetes project overall?

GUINEVERE SAENGER: It depends on what your goals are, right? I believe so. I believe, for me, personally, it has been incredibly helpful looking into corners of the project that I don't know very much about at all, like API machinery, storage. It's been really exciting to look over all the areas of code that I normally never touch.

It depends on what you want to get out of it. In general, I think that being a release team shadow is a really, really great on-ramp to being a part of the community because it has a paved path solution to contributing. All you have to do is show up to the meetings, ask questions of your lead, who is required to answer those questions.

And you also do real work. You really help, you really contribute. If you go across the issues and pull requests in the repo, you will see, hi, my name is so-and-so. I am shadowing the CI signal lead for the current release. Can you help me out here? And that's a valuable contribution, and it introduces people to others. And then people will recognize your name. They'll see a pull request by you, and they're like oh yeah, I know this person. They're legit.

CRAIG BOX: Well, people will definitely recognize your name now. So Guinevere, congratulations again on the release. And thank you for joining us today.

GUINEVERE SAENGER: Thank you.

CRAIG BOX: You can find Guinevere Saenger on Twitter at @guincodes.

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ADAM GLICK: Thanks for listening. As always, if you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate a five star rating in iTunes, as it helps us spread the word. If you have any feedback for us, you can find us on Twitter at @kubernetespod, or reach us by email at kubernetespodcast@google.com.

CRAIG BOX: You can also check out our website at kubernetespodcast.com, where you will find our transcripts and show notes. Until next time, take care.

ADAM GLICK: Catch you next week.

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